Van Weijen celebrates 50: “AI is great, but with respect for copyright”

We agreed to meet in Kees’s office in Soest. He is not often there, however, as he travels all over Europe (and beyond) for meetings, seminars, speaking engagements and lobbying. Our conversation is also a journey, prompted by the fact that he has now been working in the music industry for 50 years.

By Werner Schlosser

Exactly 20 years ago, I was also a guest at Van Weijen’s home. Back then, I chronicled the story of his first 30 years in the industry. That story can be reread here. This interview picks up where we left off then, zoomin in on huis most 20 recent years. I deliberately do not write ‘his last 20 years’ because it might insinuate that he is wrapping up his career. That is not the case, as he still enjoys being at the center of developments (and attention) far too much.

So we’re picking up the thread in 2004… In that year, you started your own company, Hit4Us, after 30 years working at PolyGram/Universal. How did you experience that step to independence?

“In fact, that step wasn’t such a big deal, because during my time with PolyGram/Universal, I always managed the companies with an entrepreneurial spirit. Even as Mercury’s managing-director, I handled the 60 million annual turnover as i fit was my own money. When I left Universal, I had agreed to stay on for one and a half days a week for another year and a half to search for sponsorship deals for them. But soon I was approached by BMG Benelux’s managing director, Rob Schouw. BMG had just acquired Zomba, including Zomba Distribution, and they wondered whether that would fit in with Bertelsmann’s own distribution division Arvato. So, I took a critical look at the company for them and concluded that it was viable, provided a reorganization was carried out. They were willing to tdo that, but only if I was available to run the company. One of our first decisions was to do the sales ourselves and change the name to Rough Trade Distribution, as the company was called before it became Zomba Distribution. Paul Davies joined us, starting February 1st 2005, from SONY BMG (those two companies had since merged, WS) to become our general manager.”

In 2009, you even became owners of Rough Trade…

“In late 2008, Pinnacle, one of the biggests distributors of entertainment products in the UK, and also part of Arvato, went bankrupt. Arvato wanted to divest Rough Trade, to avoid a similar debacle here. That’s when Paul and I did a management buy-out. We were able to take over the company, including all employees and liabilities, for 1 euro. It was a rocky period for the industry, so we were not really profitable, but growing fast. At one point we were doing the distribution for 320 labels and gave many starting Dutch acts, such as Chef’Special en Caro Emerald, distribution deals. That’s why we were approached, a few years later, by Leon Happé, of our big competitor [PIAS]. He told us that they were constantly missing the boat when trying to close a deal and asked if we would consider working together. Initially, we wanted to keep a majority stake in the company, but in the end we sold it entirely and it became [PIAS] Rough Trade Distribution in 2014. Part of the deal was that Paul and I would run the company for another three years. At the end of that period, I had reached retirement age, and decided it was a good time to leave.”

The projects he is most proud of:

(in reverse chronological order)

  • My election as chairman and president (both four years) at IMPALA
  • STOMP, NVPI’s independent platform
  • The breakthrough of the band Live
  • The start of MCA and the fact that I was able to transfer all but two of the team to the new Universal Music after the merger in 1999
  • My idea to have Nana Mouskouri record her greatest hits in Spanish. Of these, 600,000 double CDs were sold in Spain and 300,000 in South America

Apart from being a step towards independence, you also made the switch from the Majors to the Indies after leaving Universal. In which of those two worlds can or could you provide the most added value do you think?

“I think that I was able to contribute a lot to the professionalization of the Indies, due in part to my 30 years of experience in the Majors. The Indies did and do still see the Majors as their biggest enemy, and in many respects they are, but everything is really well organised there. During my time with PolyGram, I was given every opportunity to educate myself in all sorts of areas, from management to accounting. I was able to put all those experiences gained in the Majors to enormous use for the benefit of the Independents. Especially when I became board chairman of STOMP (Independent Music Producers Foundation) in 2011 and was elected chairman of the Indie interestgroup IMPALA two years later. After my first term, I was re-elected for another two years, and then I also served as president of the organisation for four years.”

From your position at industry advocacy groups, what do you want to achieve?

“In all immodesty: a lot, and also many different things. As such, I’m a member of 15 of IMPALA’s 18 committees. One is the digital committee, which I set up myself five years ago, and which aims to be proactively active in a digital world. As a result, its members, who represent 6,000 independent labels in Europe, speak every month with the headquarters of Spotify, YouTube, Amazon, and all the other major players. In those talks, we are updated directly about their intentions, so that we don’t have to hear about them through the media. Several months ago we had intense discussions with Apple about their plans with Spatial Audio. They want to give labels who offer at least 50% of their catalogue in that audio format an extra 10% royalty. However, they are not going to pay for that out of their own pockets, but want to take it from the Indies, who don’t have the money to provide an extra mix of every song. I still really enjoy fighting for that kind of thing.”

“For example, I’m also a member of the working group on Inclusion & Diversity. I fight for that in the Netherlands, even though some people think that everyone should just stand up for themselves. If I had still had Rough Trade or had Polydor to run, then I could only have participated in two or three working groups. But I have plenty of time, enjoy doing it, stay super informed, and can provide input. As a result I still feel I’m in the heart of the music industry.”

Dilemmas

  • Label or interest group?
    • “Music is the most fun, so label.”
  • Being at home or on the road?
    • “Being at home.”
  • Managing or transferring knowledge?
    • “At this stage: transferring knowledge.”
  • Employed or own company?
    • “Own company.”
  • Quitting or continuing?
    • “To continue for a while.”

But where does your focus lie now within IMPALA?

“I am responsible for Central and Eastern Europe, including the Baltics, Russia, and other countrites in that region. That’s why I travel so much. In Serbia I founded the industry association RUNDA together with locals, in Hungary HAIL, in Romania INDIERO, and last year in Bulgaria ANMIP. I am on the advisary board of those organisations to suport them as much as possible. Among other things, we have ensured that they now have Spotify there. It is a music market with 60 million consumers, which saw a 26% increase in sales in 2022. And a lot more is possible. That keeps me going.”

So you travel from one meeting to another and are therefore on the road a lot. At the same time you are also a husband, father and grandfather. Do you think you have found the right balance?

“Yes, better than during the first part of my career. Back then, I was always on the road with artists. In the seven years I worked internationally, I was on a plane twice a week on average. Last year, I made ‘only’ 16 trips abroad.”

But suppose you received comments from your family, what would you do?

“I don’t expect that to happen, because it is very well balanced now. We have grandchildren aged 10, 12 and two aged 14. We would like to see them more often, but of course they also lead their own lives. Fortunately, we see each other regularly and are in good contact. There are no complaints about that.”

With 50 years of experience under your belt, are you even open to criticism?

“According to my wife Wilma, I don’t take comments very well. I do think I am open to it, but I don’t think criticism is always justified. If I’ve done something after careful consideration and then receive criticism about it, then I sometimes have trouble admitting that maybe I didn’t make the right choice after all.”(‘Self-reflection!’, Wilma calls out laughing from the living room). “I also tend to always look ahead, whereas sometimes it’s good to enjoy the moment… Ok, next question!”

The most notable figures he has ever worked with:

(in alphabetical order)

  • All employees who have contributed to the successes over the years, because it is always a team effort.
  • Freddy Haayen. Record man pur sang and a pioneer, who gave me my first job at Polydor.
  • Elton John. I was his product and promotion manager during his most difficult period, in the 1980s.
  • Jorgen Larsen. Who gave you confidence and free reign as a manager.
  • Van Morrison. A great composer, but very moody.

What is the most important thing you have learned over the past few years?

“When Sony and BMG wanted to merge in 2004, IMPALA protested against it. We feared that such a merger would distort market relations. However, we were unable to prevent that merger at that time. When Universal  take over EMI in 2011, IMPALA objected again. This time we were more successful and were able to make a plausible case to the European Commission that Universal would be come too large a player after that merger.

As a result, Universal had to divest a number of labels. One of these was Parlophone, which was bought by Warner. There was a large amount of indie repertoire under it. Warner was then in turn required by the European Commission to sell €253 million worth of that indie repertoire to independent labels. For four years, I oversaw that process with a select group of people from Merlin and IMPALA, among others. In that procedure – bound by up to 30 ‘non-disclosure agreements’ – we received all kinds of anonymised bids for parts of that indie repertoire. We had hired John Kennedy (ex-Universal Music and ex-IFPI) as an independent lawyer to weigh each bid and determine who would be allowed to buy which piece. In that process, I learned to negotiate at a high level, interpret contracts, assess potential disruptions to the music market… That was tremendously instructive and exciting.”

What are you most proud of in the second part of your career?

“Then I would also definitely like to mention the creation of STOMP. We are the 100% indie platform of the NVPI and as such have really built a ‘brand’. Within the NVPI, we agree 95% with the majors, but we certainly also differ on certain points. Take, for example, the ‘RAAP-PPI Judgement’  (the European Court ruled that fees for the use of US music should be collected and paid to artists, while European artists do not get any money from America, because that country has no neighbouring rights and thus does not provide, WS). As a result, indies miss out on an amount of 125 million, rising to 175 million in three years, which they therefore cannot invest in new recordings. In such a case, we are diametrically opposed to the majors, especially internationally. They don’t want to see that the independent labels, their own breeding ground no less, are of great importance. That’s what I fight for.”

His favourite albums of all time:

(in alphabetical order)

  • Erikah Badu – Baduism
  • Fleetwood Mac – Rumours
  • Nirvana – MTV Unplugged In New York(*)
  • U2 – All That You Can Leave Behind
  • Stevie Wonder – Talking Book

(*) On the day MCA Benelux opened its offices, Nirvana singer Kurt Cobain took his own life. Nirvana was one of the big up-and-coming acts on MCA’s Geffen label.

The main changes in the music industry have always been caused by external developments, such as the advent of the CD (Philips), downloads (Apple) and streaming (Spotify). How do you look at that and what does that say about the industry?

“Quite simply, we are not tech firms. Our goal is to exploit music, not develop our own carriers. We don’t have the money for that either. As Jorgen Larsen, former ceo of Universal Music International, said: it’s not about who has the digital highway, but who has the cars driving on it. And that’s us. More than 120.000 tracks a day are uploaded on Spotify.”

By contrast, you yourself are currently active in tech, such as with digital service providers, social media and artificial intelligence. In what ways are you involved?

“I’m on top of that as much as possible. In fact, I think the tech companies are one of the biggest threats to indies. Whether it’s YouTube or Amazon wanting to start labels, not to mention AI. That is also why I have been heavily involved in the background with the creation of the European AI Act. Of course, this is only the beginning, because it contains many ambiguities and things that have not been specifically stated. It is very important that this is rectified in the future, because it will soon be almost impossible to distinguish ‘real’ (human) from ‘fake’ (AI). And in the latter case: on what information it is based. Don’t get me wrong, I think artificial intelligence is a great invention and I am all for it, but with respect for copyright and the human factor. The very delineation of that – or lack thereof – is a huge danger in our industry, where we make our money with creations and copyrights.”

What do you think the music industry will look like in 10 years’ time?

“With the exponential speed at which developments are currently taking place, I don’t think it’s realistic to want to look further ahead than two years. In any case, I don’t think streaming is the end point. You can see that the focus is currently shifting to so-called superfans of artists. They are now trying to offer them tickets, merchandise and special releases via streaming services. Actually, a very old idea, which is very similar to the 360-degree model from the beginning of this century (where music labels earned a share of all revenue streams around an artist, WS). By the way, I don’t think that will work, because a fan won’t be mislead.”

In addition to your work, you have been giving guest lectures at the Fontys Rockacademie in Tilburg for over 15 years. What are the most important lessons you want to impart to students?

“That’s not very complicated. Believe in your dreams and don’t let disappointment get you down. Stay original and if there is a certain hype, do something different. Decide for yourself whether you want to make an artistic product or something commercial. In other words: are you doing it for yourself or for a larger audience? In the latter case: make a connection, build a fanbase and maintain it. Furthermore, I always recommend starting at an indie. If only because a major usually doesn’t let you in so easily. If you do, you immediately get a 50-page contract under your nose. I also tell them to learn to share. If necessary, start with a higher distribution fee, because you should realise that a distributor has to work much harder at the beginning of your career than when you are already well known. Then stipulate that as you become more successful, you pay an increasingly lower fee. Labels, of course, work the other way round, with royalty percentages. They won’t be keen on paying higher royalties with increasing success. For those who start working for a label themselves, I always advise not to go job-hopping right away. Finish something, get good at something first and try to make a career plan.”

Family man Kees

Kees van Weijen was born in Rotterdam on 23 February 1951. The family further consisted of his brother, father and mother. His father was a hobby bass player and played a lot of jazz music. He had his own insurance company and the intention was for the sons to take it over. When Kees chose music, Leo succeeded his father.

At an early age, Kees met his wife Wilma, with whom he has two daughters (Daphne and Merel), great sons-in-law and four grandchildren.

And what are you still learning from the students?

“I have to tell you that I am very disappointed by that. There is a certain apathy. For example, you often see them come trickling in during class. Then I explain to them that the way it works in life is that if you are late for an appointment, you are already 10-0 behind. Another example is that we invited 15 students from five courses to come to our last STOMP Members day XL. Then they could meet people from the industry there and perhaps arrange an internship. To my surprise, they stood around talking only to each other. That is exactly the opposite of how our industry works. So there’s a big mentality problem and a lack of enthusiasm in the preliminary stage, and that’s quite worrying. That is why I am all the more pleased with the success of the Development Team we have created within STOMP. These are young professionals from the music industry whom we encourage to talk to each other and exchange experiences, in order to further develop themselves and the industry. These are the managers of the future, whom I will gladly make room for.”

What are your main drivers in 2024?

“Knowledge transfer, hunger for new (industry) developments, encouraging young people and raising the quality of the industry.”

You can’t complain about recognition within the industry. Among others, you have received a special Edison Music Award, the Silver Fonograph and the IMPALA Outstanding Contribution Award. Which one is closest to your heart and why?

“That’s actually an impossible question, because each award reflects a different period. I received that Edison after my 12-year chairmanship of the Edison Foundation, in which I put the award back on the map, the Silver Fonograph is for my contribution to the Dutch music industry and the IMPALA-award is because I am very active for that group and also the face of the organisation for many people. If you put a knife to my throat and demand an answer, then I choose the Zilveren Fonograaf. That is a kind of oeuvre prize after all. Whatever position I held, at whatever company, I always profiled myself as an industry man in the full sense. I was a member of the CPG Foundation (Collective Promotion of Sound Carriers) and taken the lead with the Edisons, so this prize is to me the ultimate token of appreciation for my career.”

During our interview for your 30th anniversary in 2004, you said, “I want to continue for at least another 12 years.” We are now 20 years on. How do you envisage your active future now?

“I still enjoy what I do immensely. But I also know: I’m a guy with grey hair. I can still feel young, but people who look at me might think: what is this old grey man coming to do? At IMPALA, I said: if you feel that I and my knowledge are no longer relevant, I will stop tomorrow. So I won’t hold on to my position at all costs, but I do still enjoy the fact that I am still participating at a very high level. In short: I am not announcing my departure, nor do I intend to do so at all, but that I will have to hand over the baton at some point is one thing that is certain.”

That will then be a matter of having to rather than wanting to….

“Look, there are obviously not that many people with 50 years of experience, enough time, the passion to create a ‘level playing field’ for the indies and the ability to contribute to their further professionalisation. However: if Wilma ever expresses a desire to do more together, I will stop immediately. But don’t mention that to her…”

Kees the Collector

At the first concert Kees attended, by The Cure, he saw someone walking with a plasticised card around his neck. He wanted that too! Since then, he has kept the backstage pass or laminate from every event he attended himself, many of them signed by the artist. Erikah Badu’s tour manager, who needed his pass at other concerts, sent the gem to Kees after the tour. He probably has one of the largest collections in the Netherlands.

Kees’s grandfather sailed on Shell tankers. This inspired him to start collecting scale models, coins and all kinds of other objects from the oil company. During his many travels, he still regularly comes across beautiful things. A friend found a catalogue in France that also contains many items he does not yet have, so the search is not over yet. Wilma gave up her china cabinet, so Kees can display his collection in it.

Brief career overview

2017-present Board positions with various interest groups, including STOMP (Independent Music Producers Foundation), WIN (Worldwide Independent Network) and IMPALA (interest group for independent music companies)
2004-2016 Director/co-owner Rough Trade Distribution (from 2014 [PIAS] Rough Trade Distribution)
2004-present Owner Hit4Us
2002-2003 Executive vice president Universal Music Benelux
1999-2002 Managing-director Mercury Records
1994-1999 Managing director MCA Records (v.a. 1997 Universal Music Benelux)
1981-1985 Phonogram International Baarn
1985-1989 Polygram International London
1989-1992 MD Import Music Service
1974-1994 From radio plugger to general manager at Polydor Records

 

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